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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I used the Topsider to change Pam's oil on the 45 today (at 5K miles). The oil was dark and ready for a swap. I would not be willing to take these motors to 10K between changes. On another note, cutting off the filter ends and laying it out showed no contamination.

The Topsider started sucking air after 20 minutes with just under 5 quarts removed.

I then pulled the bottom cover and drained from the oil pan. I let it go for two hours ... it dripped until then. Another 1.75 quarts came out.

Oil changes are about dilution. You get as much of the old oil out as you can and dilute the rest with new oil.

I put 7 quarts back in to get to half way on the dipstick. I believe this was very close to 100% dilution. If I had done vacuum removal only I would have added just over 5 quarts, diluting to 5.25 / 7 or about 80%. I don't see that as acceptable.

I have no reason to believe the same isn't true on the 250 motor.

Vacuum removal was easy and I can see why the dealer would do an oil change this way. But I won't be extracting from above in the future.

I took photos but it appears that I still can't load them. If this changes in the future I will post them (along with my carbon fiber door lock pins) at that time.
 

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i ll be good at every 4k changes.
 

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If I had done vacuum removal only I would have added just over 5 quarts, diluting to 5.25 / 7 or about 80%. I don't see that as acceptable.
I've been pointing out the top pull versus bottom drain problem on the forum for several years now. Thanks Wayne for doing the due diligence to confirm.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The 911 (997) Forum insists on long drain times but I've found an overnight drain does nothing more than a 30 minute drain, at least in my case.

The GLA needed the long time to fully drain. There's no way that a dealer is going to tie up a lift for that long.

The dealer isn't going to measure oil out to match oil in either. So when they dump the approved amount back into the top of the motor there is a risk of an over fill. This happened the one (and last) time I took my 997 to the dealer for an oil change. You don't want this!!!

I'm not proposing a solution here, other than to DIY and have the confidence that the job was done correctly.
 

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the 45 needs only 5.6 qts? so 5 qts top sucked is fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hmmm ... my dipstick indicated 1/4 between low and high. I drained a bit over 6.5 quarts as a certified measurement. And I put 7 quarts in to get to the halfway point on the dipstick.

The car was on a level surface. I did not start the motor during the fill, so the filter was empty. And due to the long drain time i suspect the galleys were drained with the exception of possible ponding areas.

So why the difference?

Note 1: I have not checked the level after driving a distance. But it seems if oil was in the filter and elsewhere it would indicate less, not more, than halfway on the dipstick.

Note 2: I pulled my car out of the garage and pulled Pam's 45 in without running it up the valley and back to reach operating temperature ... a departure from my standard procedure.

Nonetheless, I was sucking air at the top after withdrawing 5.75 quarts and still had 1.75 quarts willing to drain from the bottom.
 

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To make it a fair test...... Another person will need to do the same test for a "regular" GLA250.

In the case of the AMG (at least in my previous V8 SLK55 AMG), there are two drain bolts. One for the oil pan and the other for the sump pump (where up to another 2 quarts or so are bidding).

IN the MB official shop mannual it called for AMG models to drain by the oil pan drain bolts, but for "regular" non-AMG models it called to "suction it out."




I used the Topsider to change Pam's oil on the 45 today (at 5K miles). The oil was dark and ready for a swap. I would not be willing to take these motors to 10K between changes. On another note, cutting off the filter ends and laying it out showed no contamination.

The Topsider started sucking air after 20 minutes with just under 5 quarts removed.

I then pulled the bottom cover and drained from the oil pan. I let it go for two hours ... it dripped until then. Another 1.75 quarts came out.

Oil changes are about dilution. You get as much of the old oil out as you can and dilute the rest with new oil.

I put 7 quarts back in to get to half way on the dipstick. I believe this was very close to 100% dilution. If I had done vacuum removal only I would have added just over 5 quarts, diluting to 5.25 / 7 or about 80%. I don't see that as acceptable.

I have no reason to believe the same isn't true on the 250 motor.

Vacuum removal was easy and I can see why the dealer would do an oil change this way. But I won't be extracting from above in the future.

I took photos but it appears that I still can't load them. If this changes in the future I will post them (along with my carbon fiber door lock pins) at that time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I've got a friend with a 250. If no one does this before his next oil change perhaps he will accept some free labor.

Tre GLA45 does not have a dry sump. But it does drain a lot of extra oil in a couple of hours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Great video and thanks for sharing.

Yep, that's the way I've done it before. And with a 15 minute drain it's 6 quarts out and 6 quarts in. It appears the video used 6 quarts on the fill as well.

But due to discussions on this Forum previous to your join date I decided to use the vacuum removal first to see how much oil might be left. So once I started sucking air (not quite 5 quarts) I went to the drain plug. That's where things this time got a bit different from previous changes ... I got busy with my chain saw and a couple hours passed. And rather than a 6 quart drain, almost 7 quarts came out. And 7 quarts went in to get to the halfway point on the dipstick.

My point is that if you are having a dealer change your oil you might want to encourage them to do the drain plug as shown in the video (45 style) rather than vacuum extraction (250 style). And if possible, encourage them to let it drain over their lunch break.
 

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I realize that one can ask the MB DEALER any and everything. But the fact remains that in MOST cases they DO NOT want to tie up the car lift for any longer than needed. Hence your MB MORE THAN LIKELY WILL NOT BE on the lift at all during an oil change.

Plus it is just a matter of fact that the person changing your oil in MOST DEALERSHIPS (even a high end one. BC only "one person" needs to be certified by the manufacturer) is usually the least experienced and lowest paid monkey wrench in the entire shop. So even if your car is up on the lift getting oil drained from the bottom, the more experienced techs or anybody else wanting to use that lift will TELL your guy to get your car OFF the lift NOW!!! I've seen it happen time and time again when the pressure of time/revenue constraints with EVERYTHING tracked in the shop.

Next time you are at a MB, PORSCHE, JAG, RR OR XXX DEALERSHIP.......ask if the "Certified Master Tech" by manufacturer is in today. You may be surprised to find that there is just ONE PERSON. So question is:. When that person is off or goes on vacation, do you think the dealership shuts down it's Service department? You and I both know the answer.........

Great video and thanks for sharing.

Yep, that's the way I've done it before. And with a 15 minute drain it's 6 quarts out and 6 quarts in. It appears the video used 6 quarts on the fill as well.

But due to discussions on this Forum previous to your join date I decided to use the vacuum removal first to see how much oil might be left. So once I started sucking air (not quite 5 quarts) I went to the drain plug. That's where things this time got a bit different from previous changes ... I got busy with my chain saw and a couple hours passed. And rather than a 6 quart drain, almost 7 quarts came out. And 7 quarts went in to get to the halfway point on the dipstick.

My point is that if you are having a dealer change your oil you might want to encourage them to do the drain plug as shown in the video (45 style) rather than vacuum extraction (250 style). And if possible, encourage them to let it drain over their lunch break.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I realize that one can ask the MB DEALER any and everything. But the fact remains that in MOST cases they DO NOT want to tie up the car lift for any longer than needed. Hence your MB MORE THAN LIKELY WILL NOT BE on the lift at all during an oil change.

Plus it is just a matter of fact that the person changing your oil in MOST DEALERSHIPS (even a high end one. BC only "one person" needs to be certified by the manufacturer) is usually the least experienced and lowest paid monkey wrench in the entire shop. So even if your car is up on the lift getting oil drained from the bottom, the more experienced techs or anybody else wanting to use that lift will TELL your guy to get your car OFF the lift NOW!!! I've seen it happen time and time again when the pressure of time/revenue constraints with EVERYTHING tracked in the shop.

Next time you are at a MB, PORSCHE, JAG, RR OR XXX DEALERSHIP.......ask if the "Certified Master Tech" by manufacturer is in today. You may be surprised to find that there is just ONE PERSON. So question is:. When that person is off or goes on vacation, do you think the dealership shuts down it's Service department? You and I both know the answer.........

Great video and thanks for sharing.

Yep, that's the way I've done it before. And with a 15 minute drain it's 6 quarts out and 6 quarts in. It appears the video used 6 quarts on the fill as well.

But due to discussions on this Forum previous to your join date I decided to use the vacuum removal first to see how much oil might be left. So once I started sucking air (not quite 5 quarts) I went to the drain plug. That's where things this time got a bit different from previous changes ... I got busy with my chain saw and a couple hours passed. And rather than a 6 quart drain, almost 7 quarts came out. And 7 quarts went in to get to the halfway point on the dipstick.

My point is that if you are having a dealer change your oil you might want to encourage them to do the drain plug as shown in the video (45 style) rather than vacuum extraction (250 style). And if possible, encourage them to let it drain over their lunch break.




Yep ... this 8(

Thus ... lunch break, or better yet, DIY.
 

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I can't speak to dealers, but my indy had more racks than mechanics, and my second shop the ratio was closer to 3:1 than 1:1! Also, it would not surprise me at all to see them using pits (we couldn't due to age of building and... questionable bedrock at sea level). I'd be surprised if a well-funded shop like a dealer is hurting for racks. As for the "bottom guys" doing oil changes, that's 100% true. If you came and demanded I do your oil change, there'd better be some other work on there, or I'd be doing work sup at best on your car. Mechanics are piecework paid, that means I get paid for the jobs I do. At my shop, an oil change paid the tech $0.35. You got me ****ed up if you want to demand me (technician lead) spend half an hour of my day for $0.35, when normally that same time is going for alignments ($17) or brakes ($20-30). Slow day? 35 cents is better than zero, but if something comes in that needed my certs, you were getting passed to the tech-zeros.

Sorry, man, but if your car is going somewhere that works on "street" cars, it ain't gold. That's downright harmful to the senior mechanics. They might have families to feed.
 

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So you let it drain for many hours so all the oil in drained out. So the oil galley, bearing and other parts are drained and dry. You then fill it with oil and start a motor that is dry until oil gets pumped thru the motor. Thing that would do more damage than an little left over oil from before the change. When building a new motor many will pump oil thru the motor before starting to prevent dry wear and damage. So people question on letting a motor set for a long time and then starting it as the oil has settled to the bottom.
 

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People car be extreme..

If you really want to remove all the old oil, drain the oil completely, add the new oil, let the car run for few minutes, drain the oil again, and put new oil again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The point might be overblown. I did this to evaluate the effectiveness of sucking the oil from the top vs draining from the bottom. This was due to a long discussion on this Forum regarding these two methods with good points made from both sides but with no actual data.

Now we have one set of data. You are free to decide how much it matters to you and what you want to do with it. You are also free to test it on your own car and supply us with your own results.

I admit I was a bit surprised to see so much extra oil dumped from the 45 given the extra time.

I fully appreciate a dealer wanting nothing to do with extended work or shop time.

I opt for a 30 minute drain on my 997.2 because I have found the overnight drain suggested by many makes no difference on my car ... get the job done.

Since I DIY, spending the extra time on the 45 (walking away and doing other things) is a no brainer, for me.

As far as 7 quarts back in ... two years ago when we picked the car up in Sindelfingen the dipstick read 3/4 to the top. After oil changes at just under 5K miles and just under 10K miles wherein I measured the oil out and put back that same amount the dipstick was at 1/4 before the third change at just under 15K miles. And after the longer drain it did require 7 quarts to get to the half mark. Yes, given the 6 quart spec, this bothers me!!! I suspect that 6 quart value came from the vacuum removal system rather than what the factory puts in a new motor.

FWIW ... If a long drain is going to endanger the motor think about what happens every time you park the car overnight. Or over the weekend. Or while away for a week. Or over the winter. Once run an oil film is deposited everywhere. This film remains to protect the motor when starting. It's still important to allow a proper warm up before stressing the motor.

A new motor without any film is a different matter.
 

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So you let it drain for many hours so all the oil in drained out. So the oil galley, bearing and other parts are drained and dry. You then fill it with oil and start a motor that is dry until oil gets pumped thru the motor. Thing that would do more damage than an little left over oil from before the change. When building a new motor many will pump oil thru the motor before starting to prevent dry wear and damage. So people question on letting a motor set for a long time and then starting it as the oil has settled to the bottom.



Draining the oil galleys will not hurt the engine. There's still oil coating the moving parts. Besides... if you park your car overnight it does exactly that, dumping the oil on top onto the oil sump.
 

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I insisted on my first A service that they drain from the bottom. I looked at the invoice when I got home; I did not see a charge for a new washer and called them. They told me that they had indeed drained from the bottom and the service included the washer. I'm not sure I believe them. For the first B service I said do it any way you want. I'm not keeping the car past the warranty and if it blows up before, it's on them.
 
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