Headlamps

15414 Views 38 Replies 9 Participants Last post by hawaii123, Oct 21, 2016

butterfield

Discussion Starter · Jan 9, 2014

Is the GLA going to come stock with Halogens like the CLA? Not for anything but we're in the day and age of LASER HEADLIGHTS, how is it possible that every car does not come stock with Xenons???

But yea GLA and Halogens???

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lauwersp

· #2 · Jan 9, 2014

Since you opened this topic I'm going to run with it.

I KNOW these Benz's (A/B/CLA/GLA) are very tightly budgeted because of their MSRP, but MB keeps talking about how IMPORTANT these cars are them... and they're right. The sooner you can get buyers into a MB, the more long term MB owners you'll have. Look at MB loyalty rates... very high.

I think there are a couple areas where the cost cutting was in the wrong place and the headlamps are definitely one of them. They should have been standard Bi-Xenon with optional LED. That's what Audi is doing in the A3/S3. In the US... no headlamp washers... no intelligent lighting... no adaptive lighting... and no automatic high beams. I don't care that these aren't standard. Why aren't they part of a better lighting package??? You've made these cars so modern looking and stylish to woo younger buyers... but then you skimp on some of the tech (no push button start option jumps to mind here too).

This is all sadly ironic considering the Concept GLA was the first car, to my knowledge, actually SHOWN with working laser headlamps. I didn't expect them to survive to the production vehicle... but standard halogen/optional Xenon is as low rent as any luxury car gets today.

Disappointed.

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Glamorous

· #3 · Jan 9, 2014

lauwersp said:
Since you opened this topic I'm going to run with it.

I KNOW these Benz's (A/B/CLA/GLA) are very tightly budgeted because of their MSRP, but MB keeps talking about how IMPORTANT these cars are them... and they're right. The sooner you can get buyers into a MB, the more long term MB owners you'll have. Look at MB loyalty rates... very high.

I think there are a couple areas where the cost cutting was in the wrong place and the headlamps are definitely one of them. They should have been standard Bi-Xenon with optional LED. That's what Audi is doing in the A3/S3. In the US... no headlamp washers... no intelligent lighting... no adaptive lighting... and no automatic high beams. I don't care that these aren't standard. Why aren't they part of a better lighting package??? You've made these cars so modern looking and stylish to woo younger buyers... but then you skimp on some of the tech (no push button start option jumps to mind here too).

This is all sadly ironic considering the Concept GLA was the first car, to my knowledge, actually SHOWN with working laser headlamps. I didn't expect them to survive to the production vehicle... but standard halogen/optional Xenon is as low rent as any luxury car gets today.

Disappointed.

I totally agree with you.

And now that Audi is offering on the Q3 STANDARD ACTIVE XENON HEADLIGHTS, what is the excuse MB?

Sometimes I think Audi is the new MB...but I can't break away from my MB loyalty. And perhaps that is what MB is counting on...

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lauwersp

· #4 · Jan 9, 2014

Glamorous said:
I totally agree with you.

And now that Audi is offering on the Q3 STANDARD ACTIVE XENON HEADLIGHTS, what is the excuse MB?

Sometimes I think Audi is the new MB...but I can't break away from my MB loyalty. And perhaps that is what MB is counting on...

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Well I think Audi needs to be more aggressive. They still are the technical underdog in sales. It makes me sad to say it, but they have a better pulse on what buyers in this segment want. I'm 44 years old, and I want a GLA 45 as my first MB... I am MORE than technically fluent to understand the differences in headlamp systems and it WILL influence my decision about what I want to buy.

This was a stupid thing to give Audi a leg in here. Mercedes should cut ALL their internal development on any halogen lighting systems for ANY model. Standard HIDs for the lower end models with LEDs optional and LED's standard for all the upper end models. Period.

All these initial CLAs had halogen units. Why saddle dealers with cars like these? There's a thread in the CLA Forums about a guy who bought what he thought was a loaded CLA and then discovered it had the halogens. $3,500 was the dealer quoted price to switch the halogens for the HIDs... which aren't even ADAPTIVE!!!

Stuff like this doesn't build brand loyalty... it also doesn't help increase the desirability factor for these models when the base model is so scaled back.

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A.T.L.

· #5 · Jan 10, 2014

Maybe MB is just trying to cut back on other high end stuff to improve on others that are more essential to making a great vehicle.

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carbonfiber

· #6 · Jan 10, 2014 (Edited)

Think of it this way.

And this is topic that completely drives me nuts.

So we use to think halogens were the best until xenon came out.

And many cheaper and entry level cars are coming out with xenon lights.

So manufacturers continue to raise the bar. Now some luxury and higher end cars have LED headlights as options.

And of course Audi thinks that since they were one of the first if not first to do LED headlights.. And now everyone (even a Honda accord) is copying them

They are going to put darn lasers into their headlights and make laser headlights!

So the evolution is as follows:

HALOGEN > XENON > LED > LASERS COMING IN!

And you are telling me that a Mercedes Benz of 2014 is going to have halogens standard?

Something doesnt make sense here.

To add to this: The NHTSA and EURONCAP have ratings for crash prevention technology.

Have they ever considered visibility is a feature that can be integrated into technology into the car that could directly effect safety?

Visibility = Safety....

How come we dont have better standards for Visibility...

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lauwersp

· #7 · Jan 10, 2014

A.T.L.... One can always give MB the benefit of the doubt with your argument... but it doesn't change the fact that they take a big risk making decisions like this over a very visible feature. If the GLA didn't come with power windows would you pose the same argument? In fact, it's this very thing that killed the C230 Kompressor and what MB vowed wouldn't happen again with a new entry level car.

Carbon is right... visibility IS a safety factor. Do we like adaptive lighting because we just love seeing the lights swivel around? Are auto high beams there because we are JUST too lazy to operate the high beam control? It's ALL about safety.

Halogen lighting is just done. It shouldn't have even been CONSIDERED and I really think MB is foolish for ever considering rolling out a model that has them as standard equipment.

The new S-Class is the first car in the world to have every single light inside and out to be LED. They certainly CAN do it if they try.

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A.T.L.

· #8 · Jan 12, 2014

it may not be the best thing to say about MB but it is something to suggest and look into.
but it would help if we can get answers from them, maybe with the help of automotive journalists

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carbonfiber

· #9 · Jan 14, 2014

Halogen is simply INADEQUATE. It does not throw out enough lumens and it does not throw it out far enough. I am almost blind when driving at night with halogens. Especially when your eyes adjust to the brighter streets of today (more street lights, other cars with bright lights)

It makes it seem like your headlights aren't even on. And the government and local juristictions wonder why people slap on aftermarket HID kits... Duh... To improve visibility... There are entry level KIAs and Hyundais that are coming with xenons now or halogen projectors at the very least.

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butterfield

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jan 14, 2014

The 2 series comes with Xenons but the X1 does not.... Thats the problem when you get locked into a race to the bottom.

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A.T.L.

· #11 · Jan 15, 2014

butterfield said:
The 2 series comes with Xenons but the X1 does not.... Thats the problem when you get locked into a race to the bottom.

It's a downside but it's just a small one. One which many can live with. Even just upgrading the halogens to higher output bulbs will leave some people happy enough. But of course having projector headlights is the ideal thing to do.

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butterfield

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jan 15, 2014

A.T.L. said:
It's a downside but it's just a small one. One which many can live with. Even just upgrading the halogens to higher output bulbs will leave some people happy enough. But of course having projector headlights is the ideal thing to do.

the point is that not only does Mercedes parade themselves around as being one of the safest automakers around, they're now on this terminal binge to seem hip and cool which IMO is a HUGE tarnish to the brand. don't be trendy, be timeless.

Digression, sorry. Point being if MB is not only safe but hip and cool as well, how do they go on to sell a vehicle with Halogen headlights that are not only inferior from a safety standpoint, but outdated technology you can find on any 1950s Buick...????

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Glamorous

· #13 · Jan 16, 2014

There is only so much light you are legally allowed to emit to the roadway. LED lighting features a really nice white brilliance, but they are not actually shining further down the road (that would be illegal in terms of aim). 20 year old Halogens light the way just fine when they are aimed properly, with good bulbs, and clean lenses. Same with HID systems. The only time there is an improvement is with the high beam. Then HID can really help over halogens. A halogen high beam is awful.

In my opinion, and that of some optometrist friends of mine...I believe that HID/LED lamps reduce your ability to see farther down the road because they reflect too much light back into your eyes from the road surface. This makes your pupil contract and not be able to absorb the light from farther ahead, so see it reflecting off an object/person far away. It's the same problem when your gauge brightness is turned all the way up.

Also, the biggest drawback to LED front lamps is lack of heat. To get snow/ice to melt off the front of the lamp in a snow storm you actually need the heat of the lamp. A supplementary heater might even be required. At least in the winter the LED lamp would need to consume the same amount of power as an HID, when you include a heating system.

A halogen lamp costs the OEM manufacturer something like $20-$35 per side, per car... $50 versus say $200 per car for the LEDs is a lot of money to pay just to say you have LED lamps on an economy car. This is why we don't see more economy cars with LED headlights, although even the new Toyota Corolla has LED headlights. The COROLLA! Would you ever think the day would come when a COROLLA features newer/better technology than a Mercedes-Benz?

What works best for the manufacturers is offering LED headlights 'available' as an option, and then charging about $500 for them (or more in the case of a Mercedes-Benz options sheet). OEM pays the $200, and they make at least $300 off the customer in pure profit. Customer is happy because his car has HID/LED lamps.

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butterfield

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jan 16, 2014

Glamorous said:
There is only so much light you are legally allowed to emit to the roadway. LED lighting features a really nice white brilliance, but they are not actually shining further down the road (that would be illegal in terms of aim). 20 year old Halogens light the way just fine when they are aimed properly, with good bulbs, and clean lenses. Same with HID systems. The only time there is an improvement is with the high beam. Then HID can really help over halogens. A halogen high beam is awful.

In my opinion, and that of some optometrist friends of mine...I believe that HID/LED lamps reduce your ability to see farther down the road because they reflect too much light back into your eyes from the road surface. This makes your pupil contract and not be able to absorb the light from farther ahead, so see it reflecting off an object/person far away. It's the same problem when your gauge brightness is turned all the way up.

Also, the biggest drawback to LED front lamps is lack of heat. To get snow/ice to melt off the front of the lamp in a snow storm you actually need the heat of the lamp. A supplementary heater might even be required. At least in the winter the LED lamp would need to consume the same amount of power as an HID, when you include a heating system.

A halogen lamp costs the OEM manufacturer something like $20-$35 per side, per car... $50 versus say $200 per car for the LEDs is a lot of money to pay just to say you have LED lamps on an economy car. This is why we don't see more economy cars with LED headlights, although even the new Toyota Corolla has LED headlights. The COROLLA! Would you ever think the day would come when a COROLLA features newer/better technology than a Mercedes-Benz?

What works best for the manufacturers is offering LED headlights 'available' as an option, and then charging about $500 for them (or more in the case of a Mercedes-Benz options sheet). OEM pays the $200, and they make at least $300 off the customer in pure profit. Customer is happy because his car has HID/LED lamps.

Its not only the brightness, halogens have a narrow illumination band, with HID/LED you illuminate a wider portion of the road in front of you, although thats not noticeable unless you're in an area lacking street lights.

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Glamorous

· #15 · Jan 16, 2014

butterfield said:
Its not only the brightness, halogens have a narrow illumination band, with HID/LED you illuminate a wider portion of the road in front of you, although thats not noticeable unless you're in an area lacking street lights.

This is true. Can we all agree that halogens should not belong on any new luxury car in the year 2014?

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carbonfiber

· #16 · Jan 16, 2014

Glamorous said:
There is only so much light you are legally allowed to emit to the roadway. LED lighting features a really nice white brilliance, but they are not actually shining further down the road (that would be illegal in terms of aim). 20 year old Halogens light the way just fine when they are aimed properly, with good bulbs, and clean lenses. Same with HID systems. The only time there is an improvement is with the high beam. Then HID can really help over halogens. A halogen high beam is awful.

In my opinion, and that of some optometrist friends of mine...I believe that HID/LED lamps reduce your ability to see farther down the road because they reflect too much light back into your eyes from the road surface. This makes your pupil contract and not be able to absorb the light from farther ahead, so see it reflecting off an object/person far away. It's the same problem when your gauge brightness is turned all the way up.

Also, the biggest drawback to LED front lamps is lack of heat. To get snow/ice to melt off the front of the lamp in a snow storm you actually need the heat of the lamp. A supplementary heater might even be required. At least in the winter the LED lamp would need to consume the same amount of power as an HID, when you include a heating system.

A halogen lamp costs the OEM manufacturer something like $20-$35 per side, per car... $50 versus say $200 per car for the LEDs is a lot of money to pay just to say you have LED lamps on an economy car. This is why we don't see more economy cars with LED headlights, although even the new Toyota Corolla has LED headlights. The COROLLA! Would you ever think the day would come when a COROLLA features newer/better technology than a Mercedes-Benz?

What works best for the manufacturers is offering LED headlights 'available' as an option, and then charging about $500 for them (or more in the case of a Mercedes-Benz options sheet). OEM pays the $200, and they make at least $300 off the customer in pure profit. Customer is happy because his car has HID/LED lamps.

Now I am not a scientist but I believe the reason that HID/LED does not light up as well as halogen in certain situations is due to the emitted spectrum

Most halogens are like 3000-4000k which does a good job at lighting up rain and fog as well as objects that are black (the ground) without reflecting too much light.

HIDs are usually 4000-4500k from the factory. Tiny bit more white which is more reflective off surfaces.

But HIDs throw out a ton more LUMENS compared to Halogens which make up for it.

I think as long as you stay under 45000k with HIDs it should help in lighting up the road. Of course having proper aim is essential.

Halogen reflectors (at least most of them) dont really reflect the light very well. Its spread out towards you. Where as HID projectors usually aim the light very sharply.

I dont know too much about LEDs and how much lumens they output or what the spectrum of light is but I would assume manufacturers do testing before they put them out.

I think at the very least the GLA and CLA should have came standard with Xenon/HID headlights.

Fine LEDs are expensive sure. I'll disregard that the new Corolla and the Honda Accord can come with LED headlights.

But at least give us xenons please.

Here is an example of Xenons that are very white and reflect some light back at the driver (not a good thing)

You can see the halogens are more comfortable to view but do not light up as far. The xenons light up farther but are tiring on your eyes.
But I believe those lights are around 5000k in the Xenon photo.

They even make HID/Xenon bulbs in 3000k if you really wanted.

Here is a more even comparison. Both halogen and xenon are around 4300k

The xenon lights up farther and wider (thanks to the superior reflectors in xenons)

Common halogen reflector lightbeam

Common xenon lightbeam

In just a few words, there are the pros and cons of halogen headlamps:

ADVANTAGES:

longer life
different dimensions
very efficient
bright illumination

DISADVANTAGES:

energy wasting
extra care required

pros and cons of xenon lights:

ADVANTAGES:

longer lifetime than halogen lights
more efficient than halogen as they use less power
better visibility for the driver

DISADVANTAGES:

too much glare and thus, potential problems for the incoming traffic
very high costs
possible harmful materials could be used

LED headlights:

ADVANTAGES:

small size, allow great manipulation for various shapes
very low energy consumption

DISADVANTAGES:

high production costs
low amount of generated power
high temperature created around adjacent assemblies

Hope that helps everyone....

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lauwersp

· #17 · Jan 16, 2014

I love all this headlamp tech talk...

Here's the bottom line though for all those "regular" buyers that aren't going to indulge with us on this thread: However you want to spin it, the new Audi Q3 comes standard with Bi-xenon lamps with LEDs optional and that's the GLA's most direct and formidable competitor. At the end of the day it's a marketing game. We TRUST MB is giving us the safest technology, but how these cars look and perform turn many, many sales.

MB dropped the ball and Audi is picking it up and running with it. Whatever we want to speculate on in terms of cost differences, Audi had the same problem and they made it work. Are there other areas where the MB spent more on the GLA than Audi on the Q3? I'm sure there are... but WE don't know exactly what and where they are.

In addition... even IF some tech had to be only available as options... make it so MB. Where is my Keyless Go? Where is my adaptive/intelligent lighting? Where are my auto high beams? Where is my motorized hidden display instead of that tacked on permanently mounted screen? Where are the hydraulic struts that hold open my hood?!? There's too much visible cost cutting without options to make this the Benz I want.

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A.T.L.

· #18 · Jan 16, 2014

butterfield said:
the point is that not only does Mercedes parade themselves around as being one of the safest automakers around, they're now on this terminal binge to seem hip and cool which IMO is a HUGE tarnish to the brand. don't be trendy, be timeless.

Digression, sorry. Point being if MB is not only safe but hip and cool as well, how do they go on to sell a vehicle with Halogen headlights that are not only inferior from a safety standpoint, but outdated technology you can find on any 1950s Buick...????

You make a good point.
Just imagine the response they would get from consumers if they even fitted the cheapest projectors they can make, even with those people will be happy.
I know I would.
Even the cheapest projectors with not the best cut off will be better than halogen lights.

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Glamorous

· #19 · Jan 17, 2014

lauwersp said:
In addition... even IF some tech had to be only available as options... make it so MB. Where is my Keyless Go?

YES, where is our Keyless Go? I was shocked to learn it's not available on the GLA.

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lauwersp

· #20 · Jan 19, 2014

Glamorous said:
YES, where is our Keyless Go? I was shocked to learn it's not available on the GLA.

The Ford Fiesta ST comes with push button start. Shameless MB... out of touch.

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